Real estate developers drive a staggering amount of construction in the US today, and like all construction project owners, they have unique needs. Whether you are a design firm, general contractor, or specialty contractor, some or even most of your projects have a developer as your ultimate customer.

In this episode, we hear from a VP of Construction for an affordable housing developer, but Meade Rhoads has been on both sides of the table and brings a well-rounded perspective to the discussion. Join us to improve your understanding of developers as a customer and how you can improve your strategy for winning more developer-driven projects and building lasting partnerships regardless of your role in the industry.

Transcript:

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00:03
Speaker 1
All right, it's morning huddle time. Good morning. I'm not saying it works. I wish you God speed. Godspeed with all of that. I think that's really nice. You know, I'm not sure what kind of success you're going to have with that today because the world, my friend, has changed. Right?

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00:19
Speaker 2
A lot of American construction workers, they have different needs.

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00:23
Speaker 1
They have completely different needs.

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00:25
Speaker 3
These awards have a huge, like, criteria that you have to fill out and they usually community service or community relations portion, you know, the most productive with a high performance value. And, you know, sometimes it's 11 o' clock at night.

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00:43
Speaker 1
Funny, isn't? Yeah, not for me. Not for me. At 11 o', clock, I am guaranteed to be snoring.

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00:50
Speaker 3
So.

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00:50
Speaker 2
So.

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01:00
Speaker 1
Good morning. It's morning time. I'm Chad Prinke here with my co host and producer, Stacy Holzinger. Stacy, how are you today?

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01:09
Speaker 3
I'm doing great. How are you guys?

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01:13
Speaker 1
So far, so good. So far so good.

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01:15
Speaker 2
It's.

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01:15
Speaker 1
We're inches away from Thanksgiving. Our house is teetering on the edge of sickness, and we're hoping to be able to actually see family. So that's what's going on in my world. We have today, we have a good friend and guest, Mead Rhodes, who's with us from the NHP Foundation. He heads up construction for the NHP foundation, which is an affordable housing developer and an operator of affordable housing properties. Mead, thank you so much for joining us today.

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01:48
Speaker 2
How are you doing? Just fine. Glad to be here. Look forward to this chat.

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01:54
Speaker 1
Yeah, same. What's, what's exciting in your house heading toward Thanksgiving?

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02:00
Speaker 2
We're headed down to Pinehurst. It's typical plan, right? We head down there, meet some family down there, look forward to it. One of my favorite holidays. Right? Just a lot of food. Too much food.

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02:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's the best. An entire holiday that is actually geared around the idea of giving thanks. I think is. Gratitude is such a valuable thing. It's. I think if we can all stay there and not get into politics, then we will have a good holiday, I think, in our house. Stacy, what's. What's going on in your world heading into Thanksgiving? Oh, Stacy, we're not hearing you.

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02:49
Speaker 2
Shoot.

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02:51
Speaker 1
Stacy, with the technical difficulty. Oh, no, it's all good. It's all good. She'll get it straight. I'm confident. I do know that Stacy has not had Thanksgiving dinner with her extended family for three years due to the flu. Every time she's had, you know, Thanksgiving in the past three years and this year, their fingers crossed, gonna actually make it to a Turkey Day dinner. I'm hoping, I'm hoping for Stacy that turns out again. I'm sure she'll be joining us back. She just had some sort of glitch, but me, let's jump into it. So the purpose.

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03:30
Speaker 2
Sure.

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03:31
Speaker 1
The focus of today's conversation. And, and I, I've actually talked to a handful of people leading up to this that are really excited about this conversation to actually talk to a developer or somebody on the developer side of the multifamily building community about what matters from a developer's perspective. And I think you actually bring a unique combination to the table, both as a developer and as a construction guy. So let's start with your story.

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04:04
Speaker 2
Sure, sure. So I was that kid who used to stand on the corner watching the backhoe. Right. So even at an early age I was interested in it. And, and then in college, I got a real estate license when I was a sophomore and spent the summers on the business end of a hammer. Right. So I, in the summertime I was banging nails.

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04:28
Speaker 1
We have that in common. Yep.

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04:29
Speaker 2
Yeah.

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04:30
Speaker 3
Right.

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04:30
Speaker 1
All through high school and college.

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04:31
Speaker 2
Yep. Well, I haven't gotten too far away from it because I'm on a farm. I don't know whether you know it, but I live on a farm and so I still the business end of a hammer every now and again. So. Yeah. But, but anyway, in terms of my career, I started in property management and I, I've come to believe that they're some of the hardest working folks in the real estate industry. They're just, they're, they have to push rents with the tenants and then at the same time not spend any money with the owners. Right. So it's just you kind of caught in the middle in the balancing act. It's. Yeah, it sure is. Takes a little bit of another go between and then, let's see. So I figured out that was just some kind of all kinds of hard work.

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05:20
Speaker 2
And so I ended up going back and getting an MBA up in D.C. at GW and then got into asset management and property management at a REIT in Richmond. And we bought a lot of properties and left there and got into residential development with a regional development, regional developer in and around DC and spent. Worked on both ends of the spectrum. So I worked on the tax credit end. Right. But then on the other end of the spectrum, we also did luxury apartments and so and not so much in the middle and then got into commercial development, mixed use development, was a partner, a development partner in Northern Virginia. We did mixed use, commercial, residential and then, and now I'm on traction side and I'm, I work at NHP. We do mostly tax credit work predominantly.

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06:31
Speaker 2
We've got 190 million in work under construction, under active construction now. And let's see what else. I'm a licensed contractor and I already said that I've got a broker's license.

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06:47
Speaker 1
That's awesome. I mean it's an extremely varied career, really comprehensive experience surrounding professional real estate organizations. And the construction end is where you started, it's where you even are today, but inside of a development firm. So I think what you stand to bring to our audience and what I'm hoping that we can get into is helping us to put ourselves in the shoes of the developer community. And I think before I start asking you those questions and putting you on the spot to be a representative from the development community, I'll also say that it's possible that some of the stuff that you personally do or believe in may be somewhat different than what are the norms in the industry.

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07:49
Speaker 1
And I think it's throughout the course of the conversation valuable to kind of differentiate between those two periodically where you might say hey, this is what's normal, this is what I've seen, it's not what I do. And then, you know, vice versa along the way.

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08:04
Speaker 2
So that's fair.

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08:06
Speaker 1
I think at the core of people's desire to understand when I say people, I'm just going to go ahead and say general contractors and subcontractors have a deep desire to understand why developers procurement processes appear to work the way they do. So let's start if you would, in your shoes as a developer, what has been your experience with a typical procurement process for the general contractor?

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08:45
Speaker 2
Sure. So let's see. I've never, I've never had the luxury of working on a product where we had 100% complete plans and were putting them out to bid and you know, the RFP bid, you know all. I think the only people that are really able to do that are schools and the government.

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09:14
Speaker 1
People building that stuff might argue that even then, even though. Okay, yeah, but no, but I, I'm hearing you loud and clear and there is something really, there is something really, I don't know common about that in multifamily. Whether it's affordable or whether it's market rate doesn't really matter. That that seems to be a trend. I hear that almost all the time. So, so as for starters, you're saying we're starting off with incomplete plans, we're going through procurement and we're starting off.

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09:46
Speaker 2
With incomplete plans and running full tilt. So I've been in two worlds, right? We talked about the market rate world that I've been in and I'm currently in the tax credit world. And in both worlds we often, and I can't think of an instance when we haven't had a GC in the mix early on. Right. And there is a tremendous amount of value that a really good GC brings to the table.

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10:26
Speaker 1
How do you select? So if I'm hearing you right. Yeah. I didn't hear you say multiple GCs. I heard you say GC involved, AGC involved early on. How do you determine which GC to involve in that early stage? Are you, are you creating some sort of competitive process between GCs early?

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10:55
Speaker 2
It's not competitive. I mean it's competitive in the sense that we may talk to a couple GCs about a project, but it's not competitive in terms of like I just. It, it's what we look for is somebody who's got availability, who's got capacity, who can add value. We're about to get into a discussion about a three legged stool, I think. Right. At some point. So the three legged stool being the owner, the architect and the GC and assembling a team that can work at a high performance level.

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11:44
Speaker 1
And so I think what I'm hearing you say is that it's the competition, if you will, at that early phase is really about finding the right fit. It's not about. That's exactly a pricing exercise at that phase for you, right?

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12:04
Speaker 2
That's. Yes. And that's one of the conversations that happens very early on. Like we've got these schematics and we're trying to figure what it's going to cost to build. But we're, but you're looking for somebody who can come in and help with estimating and, and then make decisions around more efficient structures and substitutions and maybe even bring subcontractors or at least have good dialogue with subcontractors about concepts that are being pushed around and alternates that are available. And so there's definitely a value add with a good gc, the design process.

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12:56
Speaker 1
So does that general contractor at that time know that they've been selected? And is there a way for them to not to lose that at that phase in the game, you know, is it, is it a given that they're definitely going to be your partner through the course of the project if they've been brought in at that phase of the game? Like so to rephrase, do they know that they're the guy or they're the company and is that a given?

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13:27
Speaker 2
Yeah. So in my experience, yes is the answer. I mean we select some, we select somebody and they participate in the design, the refinement of the design and they're actively engaged in pricing and there's a target like we know what we want to spend. And so managing the design process so that we end up with a construction number that works is important. And so it just doesn't work to have multiple people, you know, having multiple discussions. You. Part of it is getting a contractor who's invested in the process.

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14:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. I as. So I have to say it. I'll be on a soapbox for roughly 30 seconds. Time me. I'm sorry. But one of the things I see that drives me crazy are situations in which developers create a competitive budgeting process on extremely early stage plans.

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14:45
Speaker 2
Yes.

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14:46
Speaker 1
And make their general contractor selection based on the lowest budget from the gc. At a phase in which there's so much ambiguity and so many questions about how plans can be interpreted and what they're begging for, literally begging for in that instance, is for general contractors to interpret the plans in the least expensive way.

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15:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's exactly.

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15:16
Speaker 1
Which may or may not be constructible, which may or may not meet design intent. Which may or may. Right. Like all those things are up in the air. And the earliest phase of the general contractor developer partnership is forged in lies, which is a terrible way to start a relationship. It's just a terrible way to start. And it's in there constantly digging out of it. I lay that responsibility directly at the feet of the developer. Creating a procurement process that is inherently flawed.

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15:51
Speaker 2
Well, even worse than that.

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15:53
Speaker 1
Things differently.

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15:54
Speaker 2
Yeah, even worse than that is not communicating that's what's going on. And have. Having multiple conversations with contractors. Right. And, and, and that inevitably they're talking to the same subs. And it always gets at and back and you do nothing but undermining, you know, what you're, what you're trying to do, which is to build a great high performance team to get this job done. So totally.

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16:19
Speaker 1
And by the way, word, we haven't even started construction. We're about to get married for about 24 months.

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16:24
Speaker 2
That's right. Right.

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16:26
Speaker 1
And imagine starting off, you know, marriage knowing that your spouse just cheated on you. You know, that's the way it feels for, that's exactly for both parties, I think. And again, the person driving the bus there is the developer. They have to take more, a more responsible approach to procurement. It really sounds like you and NHP are. I applaud you for that. Let's. I want to go to this idea of the three legged stool. I want to go in particular, I want to talk about the role that you want to see your contractor partner play with your architect partner. Describe maybe what a healthy dynamic looks like there. Because the way that you're doing this, with that early involvement, they really do need to be partners. What does a good partnership look like there?

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17:19
Speaker 2
So I think the best projects are projects where you've got the three legged stool. Right. So going back to that analogy, you've got the. An owner and an architect or design team and a contractor who are all high performance individuals and companies. Right. Just operating at a high level. And the goal should be to assemble a team that outperforms. And if things are done correctly and the process is good, then the outcome will be good. And the outcome, the good outcome will involve a higher level of design efficiency and quality plans, better costing because the GC actually understands, because he's been involved in the dialogue, understands what the design intent is and can help provide clarity to the subs as they're pricing things.

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18:30
Speaker 2
And then the owner is really is the conductor and should be the one assembling this team and setting the bar and making sure that the plans are tight and that the GC is, is, you know, pricing things appropriately and if the process really works, the outcome is a fairly high level of trust with a fairly high level, you know, group of individuals.

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19:03
Speaker 1
I think it's that term that you just tossed out at the end, trust is something that I, it's a topic I'm obsessed with. It's something that I spend a lot of time researching and exploring and trying to create on the teams that I work with. In your experience, what are the high trust behaviors that you see from general contractors that when they do these things, it cements that trust that you have for them as an owner?

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19:53
Speaker 2
God, that's a hard question.

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19:58
Speaker 1
Now.

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19:58
Speaker 2
So I think it may be easier.

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20:00
Speaker 1
To focus on the things that cause you to lose trust.

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20:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's, that's Maybe the. Yeah, but I, I like to think about the glass being half full. But it's a hard question because it's just, it's those behaviors that. So what is it? It's, it's perseverance, it's thoroughness, it's thoughtfulness, it's honesty. It's, you know, it's having the hard discussions before you're married, not after you're married. It's. Yeah, it's, it's taking responsibility, the things that you should be responsible for. But then if somebody stumbles, you know, one of the three legged, going back to the stool. If, if you've.

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21:02
Speaker 1
You, you.

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21:02
Speaker 2
Can still have a project that is successful, right? If you, if, if you have two really strong legs of the stool, it's awfully hard to stand one leg for 18 months. But, but if you, if somebody stumbles. We had it. We had a situation where we had an architect who ended up having some health issues and just evaporated. Right. But the project, the process and the project continued. Right. And, and then they were able to rejoin. And having two really strong players who could step in and carry the project makes a difference. And so, you know, high trust, I mean, it's all those things.

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21:51
Speaker 1
Love it. I love it. I think the, If I could share one thing that I, I share frequently when it comes to high trust behavior, it is to call out, call yourself out proactively for the errors, minor mistakes, accidents and things that you're trying to do to repair and put those things on the table and share your action plans for recovery. If anybody ever gets caught having made a mistake, the extent to which that damages trust is so much worse. And in fact, if you lead off by saying, hey, Meade, we just identified an issue that we had in pre con, we're going to own it. It's not your problem. But I wanted you to know that we have a bust. We're going to figure that out and try to create a solution with these three trades to see if we can recover it.

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23:07
Speaker 1
I'm bringing that to your attention just so that, you know, we're trying to figure out a collaborative solution that doesn't in any way change your expectations for the product.

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23:16
Speaker 2
Right.

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23:18
Speaker 1
It may even motivate you as an owner in that situation to say, really appreciate you sharing that with me, Chad. Just tell me what the damage is. We'll work through it together. Maybe it's something we can pull out of contingency, you know, or something along those lines. And we can work on that.

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23:33
Speaker 2
To do that, there has to be some level of self awareness and it just, it's, that's, it's beautiful. It happens and it elevates the whole team.

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23:45
Speaker 1
So yeah, I, I, I, I warned you when were preparing for this that this time would fly. And here we are at 9:25 almost already. I'm gonna pull Stacy in because I know that we've had a ton of questions rolling through our chat this morning.

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24:04
Speaker 3
Hey.

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24:06
Speaker 1
So glad to know everything's okay. In my brain. Your house was like hit by a missile and I was really worried and, but now here you are, you're back in your city.

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24:14
Speaker 3
I'm back. Lots of great questions. Let's start off. How do you see the multifamily residential industry pivoting in response to the rising cost of money, inflation and materials and increased cost of labor?

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24:31
Speaker 2
Holy smokes. So everybody's scrambling to the answer, right? Trying to figure out how to make it work. And so the opportunity is to sit down, take a closer look at these projects, you know, figure out how you can skinny them up and, and make the scope work. And, but it's hard. I mean, it's, it's hard. Yeah.

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25:03
Speaker 1
Are you, are you seeing, and you know, if you can't answer, it's okay, but are you seeing tax credit deals, futures being thrown into question right now? And are any tax credit deals stopping making sense in our current cost to build environment?

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25:24
Speaker 2
We haven't had any that operated. They just get a little bit harder. And so I don't know whether that, I can't speak for others. Right. For us, we haven't had any that have evaporated. We just, that's great to hear. You just dig a little harder. And you know, there's such, there's.

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25:45
Speaker 1
There'S such an incredible unmet need, undermet need, I should say, for affordable housing in the country, in this country. It makes me feel really good to hear you say that your tax credit deals haven't evaporated. I'm sorry they're getting harder, but that it is nice to hear that they're not going away. That would be, that would be a tragic situation for large population. So thank you.

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26:08
Speaker 3
Have you, were just talking about off site construction in our last episode, but have you explored off site manufacturing of modular units at all?

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26:18
Speaker 2
Okay, so we've looked at this and it's Hard with tax credits. They're front loaded. They take, they take dollars up front and we've just not been able to figure out how to make them work. And really the benefit is the quality. You just get higher quality product. But it's, the design is more complicated. It's six dimensional instead, you know, four dimensions. Right. The walls, you get the floors and you got to make verticals all work. And it, so that just, that's a degree of design that in the affordable world, as fast as we're moving, we haven't been able to get to. And then the footing of the funds is another computation that just, we haven't been able to figure out.

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27:10
Speaker 3
Are you moving towards integrated project delivery?

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27:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. This is an interesting question. I think about, you know, as you were describing the way that you like to operate, Mead, this idea of pulling in your architect and general contractor partners early, selecting people based off of their fit, not necessarily their price, and then conducting that exercise. There are formal contracting methods, you know, integrated project delivery being one of them, where, you know, you're pulling everybody together based on those themes, not just the general contractor, but most if not all of your specialty contractors, and really pulling everyone in for essentially a collective design build effort in which they're financially tied to project performance metrics and everybody's operating in an open book. Is that a topic that has entered the mainstream at all in affordable housing in nhp in your world? Where do you stand with that stuff?

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28:11
Speaker 2
Gosh, we definitely try to make sure that our design team is fully integrated and we focus on the coordination of how the architects work with MEPs. And oftentimes you get disconnects in the fans. And so we focus on making sure that process is tight. We focus on bringing the contractor into the process. Right. So that, so that they're involved in the process. But that's, I mean, today that's where our focus is and you know, wish I had a better answer.

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28:53
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it's that I would, I love integrated project delivery as a concept and I love it in practice. In some really specific examples that I've had the ability to go through. Very, very cool. I think the learning curve is something that is intimidating to a lot of folks and if I can, I'll editorialize again yet again, maybe like for the 12th time today. Sorry about that. But the, the reality is that for owners, the willingness of the MEP trades, for example, to provide free design assist as a part of the process has removed a lot of the necessity to look into ways to make that happen. If I have a good GC partner who's got a good MEP partner that they feel, you know, confident in the process, everybody's.

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29:55
Speaker 1
That the GC is not charging you for any additional design assist on the upfront collaborating with the Arc deck, I'm assuming. And you know, same goes with the trade contractors. So I think that's a part of the reality is if, if we want to, if they truly want to change the way that happens in the market, they've got to stop offering the service for free. They've got to start saying this is how this ought to work. And, and developers will. Developers are just doing there. I think they're just buying the way that everybody else is telling them to buy. It's like you're bringing your service to me in this way. So anyway, I'll shut up. Stacy, More questions.

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30:36
Speaker 3
From Casey. So I know there's a lot of issues with subs getting paid on time. Do you think prepayment for change orders is possible?

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30:47
Speaker 2
Not, not in the world that I operate in today. And oftentimes the lenders and funders actually require reviewing change orders and yeah, not in the tax credit world. Not anytime soon anyway.

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31:07
Speaker 1
So I think if I can expand on that question. Ike also tosses in this note where he's asking is, can you suggest any strategies for subcontractors to avoid having to finance change orders? Is there any. Is there anything? Because, I mean, you get it. I know, I know you understand that if you were a trade contractor working in tax credit affordable housing deals, what strategies would you be thinking about to protect your cash position and make sure that you weren't floating in financing change orders?

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31:42
Speaker 2
Wow. I haven't thought about it from that perspective and I, I just, I'm focused on getting them funded, you know, and getting things funded and getting the approvals and I just haven't flipped it around to think about it. I don't have answer today. Not in the world I'm operating in today.

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32:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't think there's a very elegant one in any case, I will share that one. One select strategy I've seen work, it's very back of the envelope, but it's still. It goes to trust is if you're a specialty contractor and you know that you're going to struggle to float some particular change order, preemptively going to the general contractor and talking about anything they can do to help you to absorb that. And I've, and I've worked with, I've had the good fortune to work with several general contractors that understand where their subs are coming from and will go ahead and cut them loose on that portion and float it themselves. But it just, it's hard, it's hard accounting and there's no elegant solution to it. It's nothing that I've seen.

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32:52
Speaker 2
Yeah. I just had a conversation yesterday with it with the GC and the conversation was we've done this, we've done 13 draws and. It's been 44 days. What it's been taken to get on this project, to get it done. And if we're not able to fix it, at least we can communicate about what it is and manage expectations so that people know what to expect. That's, it's just a, you know, having the hard con is what it is and you know, we just need to plan it accordingly. Awesome.

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33:40
Speaker 1
All right, Stacy, what else?

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33:44
Speaker 3
Just a couple more comments here from Paul and Jeff. Paul was just saying the federal mandates reporting, labor rates, insurance, except etc on the government's money is a huge issue. I don't know if you have any comment on that.

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33:58
Speaker 2
Can you say that? Can, can you?

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34:00
Speaker 3
Sure. Paul said the federal mandates reporting, labor rates, insurance. Oh, government's money is a huge issue.

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34:12
Speaker 2
Yes, yes. And, and it's a challenge for the developer. Right. Because make commitments on these projects, on these funded projects that we're going to make and have certain participation.

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34:29
Speaker 1
Participation.

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34:30
Speaker 2
Yeah, I just, it wasn't working. Right. And, and so we make participation requirements or promises and we really, I mean it's the Fed. Right. That's around. I mean we need to make them and we need to report them accurately. And so tracking that stuff is important, really important.

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34:55
Speaker 1
The, the best thing that a trade contractor can do, I think is to be bulletproof on their reporting requirements on a, on a, you know, tax credit job. You're going to have all these reporting requirements and also collaborating with your fellow specialty contractors to make sure everybody is also going to be successful. Because if, and I think maybe what Paul's alluding to, particularly as it relates to change ordered payment delays, is that one trade, if one sub doesn't have their stuff together and it can hold up the payment of a whole change order, not because anybody's trying to be a jerk, but because literally there's federal requirements that they will not release the money is not going to be cut loose and. Exactly.

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35:59
Speaker 2
Right.

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35:59
Speaker 1
You might have, you know, the electrical might be, you know, being held hostage by the concrete sub because the concrete sub isn't tight on their requirements.

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36:15
Speaker 2
And then the, and the gcs just need to step in and help with the paperwork. Get it done. Right. Whatever it takes.

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36:22
Speaker 1
And whatever it takes. I know it's tough. Paul's like, yep, that's what we're doing. I'm sure. So we're good. What else do we have?

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36:33
Speaker 2
Stacy?

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36:33
Speaker 1
Any other.

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36:34
Speaker 3
That's it.

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36:36
Speaker 2
Awesome.

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36:38
Speaker 3
Yeah.

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36:38
Speaker 1
Great conversation. I'm thrilled to see all the communication that came in through the audience. If people wanted to follow up with you separately, Mead, what would they do? Would they just connect with you on LinkedIn and reach out to you through that channel? Is that okay?

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36:58
Speaker 2
That would be fun. Sure. That would be fun. And I'm glad to help any way I can. You know, if we're asking questions, we must be trying to get, you know, improve and get better and with our understanding and all that. So, yeah, we'd be glad to help in any way we can.

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37:16
Speaker 1
That's great. Thanks so much, Mead. Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Is there anything that you want to say in parting?

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37:31
Speaker 2
I wish I had some, something profound to opera right now. I've tried to lay it there, you know, I've tried to lay it bare and just shoot straight. So, you know, I'm glad to have had the opportunity. It's nice to chat with you this morning.

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37:49
Speaker 3
Thank you.

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37:50
Speaker 1
Likewise. Likewise. I think, I think you did a great job being just who you are and sharing with us exactly how you approach the world as one person with your immense background. I think it's a great example of, for our audience what people in your shoes care about. So thank you for sharing that and I hope that you'll join us again at some point in the future.

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38:21
Speaker 2
Thank you so much. It's. It's always nice to chat with you, Stacy. Take it easy. Hope things, Hope things stay well, you know, for Thanksgiving.

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38:32
Speaker 3
You too. Happy Thanksgiving.

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38:34
Speaker 2
We'll see.

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38:35
Speaker 1
All right, Stacy, we have a little housekeeping to do here. Let's, let's talk about where things stand at this point. We've got one episode left in season three, which is episode number 38 with Kathy Hum, who is going to be joining us to talk about creating a strategic HR department as opposed to just a tactical one. And I think that a fascinating conversation for business owners, for people in the HR world. Maybe there are some frustrated HR folks who are trying to get things to change in their company and they. This would be useful to, to check out. So look forward to that. Stacy, do we have a Steeltoe Communications marketing tip heading into Thanksgiving week?

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39:30
Speaker 3
Yeah, for, I guess, Thanksgiving week to be grateful. Just a reminder to, you know, think about your internal marketing and recognize your employees. And we always say in the construction industry, the detail or the devil's in the details. Right. So when you're telling someone, just don't say you're doing a great job. Actually put some thought into giving them a nice compliment and being grateful for what they do. That's it.

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40:00
Speaker 1
I love that. That's a great. It's a great idea. I recently. Oh, you know what? I won't even say where I was, but I, I was checking out at a store and I saw something that I thought the, that three women on my team would really enjoy and ran over and picked those things up for them for Thanksgiving. Just thought, you know, people used to.

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40:24
Speaker 3
Do that all the time. Like, you know, my dad was always great with that, like recognizing people in his organization. And I feel like we lost a lot of the years. So.

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40:35
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I'm trying to. I'm a terrible gift giver. I might be the worst. Just ask my wife. It's like, bad. But I'm trying to. It's not about the gift. Right. It's just about thinking about.

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40:49
Speaker 3
Yes.

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40:50
Speaker 1
Thinking about others. So at any rate.

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40:52
Speaker 2
Well, good.

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40:53
Speaker 1
I can't wait to see you again next week. I hope that this week ahead is a wonderful one for you and for all of our audience. And if anybody that you know should be involved in season four, we're going to be starting up over the winter. We'll be starting up after the new year. And we would love to fill out the schedule with folks that, you know, I think we have eight out of our 12 guests identified. So we do have at least four.

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41:23
Speaker 2
Slots open at this point.

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41:25
Speaker 3
Okay. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. See you.

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41:29
Speaker 2
Thanks.

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